Arpita: Hello, everybody. Happy Valentine's Day. We are so excited to have you here with us today. I am really, really excited to jump into today's episode with the guests that we have. But before we do that, happy Valentine's Day, Dr. Hersh. How are you doing? 

Michael: I am great. Happy Valentine's Day to you. Excited for this episode because we're going to be celebrating relationships and couples and really how coaching can transform relationships. And so I'm going to let you introduce who we have with us today. 

Arpita: Alrighty then. I'm really, like I said, so excited, just seeing them together for the first time for me on the screen kind of brought a little tear because you can see their joy and they're just the contentment with each other. I can see it. Maybe I'm just making that up, but it did. I mean, it touched me a little bit, but I am so excited to have Sonia and Claud here. This is one of my favorite, favorite clients. I should say that about all my clients, but this is a physician couple, honestly, guys. And it's a mutual coaching couple in a sense where I started coaching with Sonia and she told her, well, I'll let her explain how it all actually transpired, but in a nutshell, her hubby, Claud began coaching with my little partner here, Dr. Hersh. And so we have a little foursome, but not really, but kind of a foursome. So yeah, so I'm super excited. Sonia and Claud take it away. Tell everybody here a little bit about yourselves and how you maybe how you met each other. Let's start with that too.

That'll be neat to hear. 

Claud: You want to kick it off? 

Sonja: So . Yeah. How I met Claud. I was a med student and he was my resident that I thought was really attractive, . and I wasn't supposed to date him, right? He's my senior. But one day after the rotation was over, he paged me on the hospital like paging system and was like, Hey. And that's how it started. 

Arpita: How about you, Claude? Is that the right story? Or is that her version? 

Michael: Was it, was it genuinely a hey? 

Claud: There are some obvious embellishments, I think. I think it was the classic medicine love story of, you know, two people working together and got along well. And I, I like to think that I had a little bit more a little bit more flavor to my page, but it really was a page. 

Arpita: Hey, it's all good. It works, right? It got you to where you are right here. 

Claud: Yeah. So we, we were both going through the, you know, the medicine step ladder. And so as a result of that, we were actually long distance for quite a long time, four or five years long distance before we eventually got married so you know, we we came out of that I think maybe even stronger than I would have imagined. Just because we learned how to communicate.

Sonja: Yeah, but we still need lots of help. 

Michael: It's interesting. So I, my wife and I dated long distance for two years before we were finally in the same city. And it is interesting because you hear all of these stories about how difficult long term relationships can be and how maybe they don't work out. But I think our relationship was strengthened in the distance. We were, you know, communicating one or two hours every night on the phone. And I think in some ways, if you are committed to a relationship in that way, it kind of almost builds intimacy in a way that you don't get when you're living and just passing each other in the hallways. Sometimes I think my wife and I should be scheduling an hour or two hour phone call every night, like we were doing at the beginning of our relationship because we were able to communicate so much better at that time. 

Sonja: And I, it was a big, like, it was really meaningful to me, right? Because I was like, this person wants to talk to me, right? It's not hanging out with me doing fun stuff. It's definitely not physical touch. He's just like, is choosing to hang out with me and my, you know, thoughts and feelings as opposed to, you know, doing stuff in person. 

Claud: Yeah, and I, I like that. And I, I think, Michael, your point is, is very good that I think there's maybe we'll get into this later. But I think sometimes when we're together in person, it's easy to become to develop sort of a complacency in a relationship that maybe you have expectations or, you know just it's easier to get caught up in your life and sort of forget why we're here together. And I think having that dedicated time just to focus on each other really was, was very beneficial for us early on.

Sonja: Yeah. Yeah, so, I mean, we were communicating, I thought, well, right, but then life goes on, residency, new job, you're finally practicing on your own, then you throw kids in the mix, and then, like, it's just like slowly falling apart. Right? 

Arpita: Yeah. So tell me like what you describe pretty much everybody, like when we go through training and we don't get that break or we don't get that time to actually remember how to go back to living like normal. We just kind of go into this rat race of, okay, now we're going to start the career. We got to be an attending. We got to have the kids, the house, all the things, all the responsibilities. And I have this person here. Yeah. And it helped me get through some of the stuff too, but I'm not necessarily taking them for granted, but they're there. So tell us, I guess, when you started to recognize that something needed to change and what kind of led you to that point for yourselves?

Sonja: So basically my body was so tired all the time. I would come home, shoulders aching, exhausted, and I would be like, when is bedtime? So we can like put the kids to bed. And then even when the kids were in bed, I was still too tired to emotionally engage with my husband. And it just, it was crazy, right? I have this beautiful life and I wasn't happy in it to the degree that I had expected to be. And I was just aging way faster because I was filled with fear of stuff. And my brain never stopped it was like to do to do to do I'm planning this like I wasn't enjoying my life period at all. 

Claud: Yeah, I mean I'll echo that I mean there I think rat race is a good term I mean it just, it felt like life felt like a churn, I think it increasingly felt like a churn and, you know, it's funny, you think about how you have these goals in life and then once you get that goal everything's going to be better and, you know, for me it was, each goal, you know, I got past my fellowship and into, you know, my career and I thought it was going to be easier, but it was harder. And then, you know, we got married and I thought it was going to be easier, but it was harder. And then we had kids and I thought it was going to be easier, but it was harder, way harder. 

Arpita: Well, that part, I don't know why you thought having kids is going to be easier. That somebody told you the wrong story there.

Claud: Yeah, right. but it, you know, it just, it felt like a constant need to check boxes and it constantly felt like I was sort of just behind. And I think, you know, the consequence of this sort of feeling like life is sort of out of control and you're sort of racing to keep up with it, at least for me, led to a degree of disengagement. Of just feeling like I don't have control of anything anymore and on top of that, I'm, I'm bordering on being a failure, you know, sort of the story I was telling myself is I'm, you know, I'm not being as successful as I want to be. And you know, my sort of maladaptive strategy to cope with that was to just completely disengage.

Sonja: And I like, obviously don't know what's going on in his head and I know all of our fights are in the flavor of you don't love me. Like you put work ahead of me and our family. Work is your number one priority. That was, yeah, that was what was going on. I felt like the Work, work, work was his focus and we were just kind of the side product in life.

Claud: And I'm sure this is probably a common thread for a lot of couples, but I mean, my perspective was, I'm just trying to support our family. I'm just trying to, you know, make sure we have security and here we are arguing about the way the dishes are done or here we are arguing about the kids bedtime and who should be doing what. And to me it felt like you know she's picking a fight with me about something so small and why does this matter and why am I 

Sonja: and I'm like, how does it not matter that the counters are wiped down? Like I don't want to walk downstairs in the morning and have like crap on the counters. Anyway, it was very important, right, but like a complete disconnect on why it's important to us. 

Arpita: What the true reason was, what was really behind it, because we are not expressing that, like, we each have our own thoughts and ideas about what's going on. And then what the other person is thinking and why they're behaving that way. And it may not be accurate at all. And so then we just keep getting farther and farther apart rather than coming back together. 

Michael: I'll also point out that what Claud is describing here about kind of focusing on providing for our families. This is a very common thread for male physicians, right? So when things are feeling busy, and there's all of these changes at home, and you're trying to figure out how do I deal with all of these things that I'm feeling? One of the easiest ways that men in general and physicians in particular manage all of these uncomfortable things that are going on is we're like, Okay, well, my job is to provide. So I'm going to divert my attention to work, right? And work, you know, Arpita and I have talked about before this idea of buffering of kind of focusing on something else, diverting your attention away from where the discomfort is in an effort to avoid feeling that way. And work feels productive. It feels really great if I can be providing for my family and working harder and earning money and supporting my family. And at the same time, you're not getting at the underlying issue, which is the discomfort that you're having from all of these changes that are going on in our lives. And so, like you were alluding to, the fight is never about the fight. Like, it's not about the thing that you're fighting about. It's about all of these other things that are kind of lying under the surface and that every once in a while kind of bubble up to the surface.

Sonja: And I kind of used his work to justify his lack of involvement, right? I'd be like, he's the breadwinner and maybe I shouldn't be mad, you know, that he's relaxing on the couch. He deserves it. But then I'm like, but I'm still so mad, you know, like he's relaxing and I'm working.

Arpita: Yeah. So, and I, obviously we've worked through that. Right? But I want you, I guess, to first start with like, how you talked about how you got kind of got to a point where you recognize that something needed to change. So tell me what happened from there. Like, how did you find your people? And how did you figure out who's the right person? What are you going to do here next to make a change? 

Sonja: Yeah, so my sister, she's a physician as well, and she had gotten into physician coaching. And I think I was crying one day to her in our backyard, just being like, life sucks right now. And she's like, Sonia, life is what you make out of it and starts lecturing me and starts talking about circumstances are neutral and your mindset blah blah blah And it was just like hocus pocus, whatever. She doesn't get it, right? She doesn't get it. And I was on a luxury spa vacation with Arpita well, not with Arpita, but she was part of the group of women we were with. And I don't know what magic Arpita did, but we ended up having breakfast together. And as always, I, you know, I'm very open and I like pour out everything to this woman. Right? And I wasn't expecting anything, other than just emotional support, I guess. But Arpita was like, Sonia, you don't have to feel this way. You know, you can feel better, and I think that was what sparked the hope is, maybe I can feel better? Even though I've read plenty of self help books and have, you know, gone to the gym and made a to do list and like a priorities list. Like, it wasn't working, but Arpita, as a kind, loving human who was in my shoes at one point, She told me you can feel better. And then I was like, okay, I got nothing to lose. Let's try.

Claud: Yeah. I mean, from my standpoint when this happened and Sonia said she was going to start doing coaching, you know, I was still in the pre contemplative mindset. You know, I was still just living in my rat race world and I'll tell you my personality is not, you know, I like to call myself a natural skeptic of virtually everything. And so, you know, show me the evidence, you know, I'm an oncologist and so I, you know, I demand, you know, level one evidence for everything. And so I sort of, maybe I rolled a little bit and said, okay, you know, go do that and, you know, I'll do my thing. And time went by, you know, three months, six months. And I, I think I can, I can see significant changes already in her mindset and her attitudes and just kind of general enjoyment. I mean, I think it was not to where it is today, but it was already improving and maybe I was a little bit jealous or curious. And I, you know, meanwhile, I was bottoming out and so you know, and, and she kept saying, you know, you should try it. You should try it. But it wasn't pushy about it. And then, you know, I think one day I just decided, you know, what? Why not try it?

Arpita: I'm just so thankful. That's it. I'm just listening to you guys. And I'm just thankful to see that because it reminds me so much of Michael and I. It's feeling like we're doing something that helps other people. I'm like trying to like, not have tears, like the whole episode. Yeah.

Sonja: So I was like, you can coach with Arpita. He's like, well, I need a man. And so arpita is what, is who, I guess roped in Michael. I mean, she gave a list of, like, male colleagues that she endorses, and then Claud went through them and, you know, did the interview with them, but ultimately clicked with michael.

Michael: And so, Claud you were saying you're a natural skeptic, which I, I'm in that club with you, 100 percent natural skeptic, born and bred. And so, talk to me about what it was like, for you to kind of go through that interview process, choose a coach, and then what was the coaching experience like for you?

Claud: Well, I don't know if it's changed. At the time, there were very, there were very limited options in terms of, you know, there were only a few male coaches at the time. And I, I really specifically wanted a physician. Because I didn't feel like a non physician would be able to understand my background and now I think in retrospect, maybe a non physician would be able to, but I'm so glad that, you know, I I basically researched your background and I was like, okay, this person sounds like someone who has a similar background to me. And I'm so thankful that I, you know, found you, but, you know, I approached it as, okay, this is going to be my cheat code in life. You know, I'm going to learn all of the life hacks to make myself more efficient to you know, trick myself into believing things and trick myself into being happy and I'll have more time and it's going to solve all these little problems that I have. And so that was sort of how I approached it initially. And you know, I'm thankful. I think you were very patient with me at the very beginning because almost all of what I came to you for was career focused. You know, how do I further my career? How do I become more efficient? How do I use my time better? You know, and then it, then it started with the how, you know, how do I do this and what, what's wrong? You know? And then it gradually became more of a why am I struggling? I think you allowed me to sort of figure this out on my own with maybe, you know, the right prompts here and there. 

And I think it culminated, Um, I was thinking back on this, there was a night when you know, I don't think we had really spoken much about personal life. It was really all career focused almost and I had we had a big fight one night and it was over, you know, again, I don't remember what it was. It was probably, you know, I didn't like the way she loaded the dishwasher or something and you know, we unpacked the events of the night and there was clearly more under the surface than, you know, met the eye and we talked about how I was feeling about it and you know, I think it, it opened my eyes to what really was going on in our relationship and started to put myself in the mindset of, of being maybe a little bit more neutral and a little bit more inquisitive about what was going on and to really start to wonder, okay, really, why did we fight? Why was I so upset? Why was my wife so upset about something that seems so meaningless rather than just saying, like, oh, why, you know, she's just being upset about something else. And so, you know, I think that was the first time I started to realize that this is something more than just a life hack for my job. This is like a different mindset. And really, you know, our relationship and our love and our family are my first priority. And why shouldn't that be what we're focused on?

Arpita: I mean, it's impactful because I think we don't recognize how many layers there are. And I always make it akin to like, peeling an onion because we show up very reactionary sometimes because that's what we've been kind of accustomized to do it's become our routine, our natural habit to react in a certain way when we see certain events happen that essentially they're, they're what we are activated by. So our brain remembers that or some similar type of episode. And we go back to that and immediately just respond that same way or react that same way. And it's not productive for us or the environment. So when we start to really kind of break down what's going on underneath, what's the source, the cause of that way of thinking, that's where we can kind of see what caused the emotions and then the reactions that came from that, like verbally or outwardly and decide if we really want to continue that way. But it takes the intentionality of going back and being willing to be vulnerable and curious about it. Honestly, but just love for the other person and for yourself so that you can do that exploration.

And I, I think that that's really what's allowed a lot of us to make changes in our life. And we say, yeah, we're going to be mindful. We're going to, you know, be more aware, but it really takes intentional work with it. You know, and I, I think back, you know, my, my husband and I have been doing this, are familiar with coaching now for 3 years, 3, 4 years, and it's not that we don't have setbacks. We still have setbacks. We'll have times where we're like sitting there and we're bickering and arguing and then when we take a minute to separate and just reflect, we start to realize, okay, you know what? You're exhausted and you're reverting back to old neural pathways, old ways of behavior. So it might not even be that there's something more deep. It's just not having the awareness of how tired we are. We just need to give ourselves a little bit of grace to rest, et cetera, et cetera. So, and sometimes it's more than that. You have to give yourself that chance to have that reflection afterwards. So you can go back and repair. So it's the rupture and the repair part of the, that interaction.

Michael: I'll also just add, I think that is kind of the gift of coaching is that when we are kind of in these arguments with our spouse, and in general, it's very other focus. We're always looking at what has been done to me. And I think what the gift of coaching, at least for me and my relationship with my wife has been like, has been the simple question of what if it's me? Considering that I am the problem, right? I'm harnessing my inner Taylor Swift now, right? It's me, I'm the problem, right? And I think before coaching, I don't really ever considered how I might be the problem in these arguments with my wife. And that has been a true gift and to be able to hold the mirror up to myself and be like, you know, what if it's me? Cause a lot of times it is me. 

Claud: Well, I'll just ricochet off what you said, and that, I'm sure I said I'm sorry many, many times after a big fight or after something, but I don't know that I ever meant it the way I mean it.

Sonja: Right, it was an I'm sorry to like shut it down. 

Claud: It was an I'm sorry, let's end this fight and, you know, move on. But now it's I've reflected on this and I'm I'm sorry, because now I see that, you know, I did something, you know, I said something that maybe I wish I hadn't said, or that I truly feel sorry for.

Arpita: I think that these are great examples like that. Just I think when you're saying this, the, I'm sorry, what comes up for me immediately is I think I've probably said this to you, Sonia, but what's the cost of being right also for the intimacy in the relationship. Right? Because what I really, really realized is that a lot of times it's that stubbornness again, stuck in that same old pattern that I have to be right. And for all of us, we're physicians, right? And so we are raised in this environment where we are responsible for patients and their health and their livelihoods and their life, quite frankly. And so we have to be a lot of the times, right. We are the ones in charge. And so when we bring that type of behavior home, it doesn't really serve us when we're in a relationship where it's supposed to be more kind of giving and, you know, having those want matches.

And so what one of the things that really resonated with me was recognizing that when I have to be right, it's costing me the intimacy of our relationship. And so, yes, there's some things that I do feel like I need to be right about, or need to explain to help the other person understand. And there's some things that I can say, you know, what, I don't really need to fight this battle. It's not really worth it. And I can let this one go, but just having that ability to decipher which ones which and being more willing to let go is, I think, very important. 

Sonja: And like, just not blaming him, right? Now like I feel it so much that I'm married to this amazing human. And he's good inside. So when, you know, he doesn't wipe the countertops down or whatever, it's, it's not like he's doing this in spite of me. Or he's, you know, so busy with his life, he doesn't have time to remember what's important to me. You just like, forgive and it's like suddenly not important. And then I'm like, why do I care? I don't care. But our fights are so much shorter slash if even fights more just like, okay, you know, like disagreements. In fact, so we were thinking what was our last one? I had a girlfriend come over this week on like a Tuesday afternoon and she wanted some wine. And I don't really drink and Claude has three wine fridges. And I was like here, take this one. And she thought the wine was good. So she's like, actually, I'm just going to take home this bottle. If that's fine. 

Claud: She thought the wine was really good. 

Arpita: I get a sense where this is going. 

Sonja: Take this bottle. Like, why is Claud going to care? He has so much. And you know, later that day, I was just like, Oh, by the way, Claud, Jasmine came over and took some wine and he's like, From where? And I showed him and like, as soon as I showed him the spot, he was like, like, you could see he was really upset that this particular bottle of wine was just like, taken. But he didn't like get mad at me. He like, We quickly came to the conclusion that it's in his best interest to make some areas of like wines that he's okay that if I just like randomly decide to take or cook with it's fine. So like, our arguments are so much less of a problem.

Arpita: I think that's so super humorous because Claud I can see your perspective because my husband would be the same you'd like you did what, which one did you give?

Claud: Yeah, I was like, wait, just as long as you didn't take from the bottom shelf, then we're okay. And she said, ooohh

Michael: I'm laughing so hard because I have had this exact argument with my wife. And now I do exactly what you just outlined. When I know that my wife is going to have people over, I set aside the wines that she can just grab from and pick whatever she wants. So that that exact situation doesn't happen again.

Arpita: Gosh, this is what happens when you have wives who don't drink wine every night. Yes, that's okay. It's all good. So tell me some other areas that sound like, I mean, this is a big one where, you know, your relationship in terms of your arguments, you're not bickering as much. What are some other areas that you feel have been so impactful where your interactions and relationship with each other have changed or has changed?

Sonja: I think our energy level is way better. Suddenly have all this energy and there's more to burn. So it's really shifted from, I'm so tired at the end of the day to like, what else are we going to do? What should we do this weekend? And, you know, like taking long weekends and doing fun stuff with the kids, going hiking, just, our life is so much fuller because of what we think we can do and like, add in there, as compared to like, okay, we just need to like, get through the weekend and rest, you know,

Claud: and I think even more than that, because we do more together, we have more energy together. I think that also, at least for me, frees up what I used to feel was, I guess, kind of a guilt when I did want to ask for time for myself. And I, I think we both feel more, or at least I know I can only speak for myself. I, I feel more comfortable now taking my personal time to explore my hobbies or, you know, do whatever I want or need to do, without feeling like I'm, I'm asking for too much because the time that we are together is so much higher quality that we can afford to be separate and pursue our own interests also. 

Sonja: Right.

We recognize that it's to our own interest for our partner to be happy in their own pursuits in life. So supporting those instead of seeing it as time away from home or time away from family.

Arpita: And if you had to pick the biggest change, I think that you guys have have noticed in yourselves out of everything, the one thing that you would not change ever again or go back to, what would you say that is? 

Claud: I think for me it's, I think we both recognize each other now as being this intelligent, thoughtful, loving, and Amazing person. Just, I think it's, it's just the way we perceive each other, I think, is that, you know, Yeah, Sonia's my wife, but she's also this this person who has feelings and desires and interests and appreciate that. So it's not, you know, we're not just role players. We're not, I'm not husband. She's not wife. I'm not, you know, breadwinner or whatever, we are who we are and, you know, that's who we fell in love with and, you know, we're always that person. 

Sonja: And for me, I think the biggest change that I feel is like I just feel weightless. As I work on unburdening myself of my like, you know, incorrect thoughts and knowing it's okay to outgrow relationships and filling myself with more energy. I feel like I'm floating and just like happier overall. And then it trickles into compassion for everyone else. Like I do such a better job sitting with my patients in clinic and just talking about the difficult, hard, squishy stuff. Cause I, I feel a connection with everybody to a much deeper level.

Michael: Yeah. You know, it's interesting how this conversation has come full circle because when you were dating long distance, and I'm going to use my own, you know, long distance dating with my wife. Those hour and two hour long conversations, it was all about appreciating each other and the time that you were spending together. And as Claud was pointing out, you know, this complacency typically develops in relationships. The more time you spend together, you're around each other, the appreciation maybe isn't there like it could be. And I think what coaching has brought back to your relationship that you were just highlighting, and certainly what it has brought back to mine, is that appreciation. It is appreciating the person for who they are and what they bring to the relationship and not the lack. Not the things that they're not doing. Because it's, it's where you direct your attention. that cultivates the relationship that you're going to have. And I know that that's what coaching has gifted my relationship as well.

Sonja: I truly feel like we live our life now together. Like, yes, we have our own goals and, you know, stuff, but he is here with me in this life. It's not you do this, I do this. And like, slowly the gap is widening, right?

Michael: Now, there are going to be skeptics out there like both of you were when you initially found coaching. And so what would you say to the skeptics out there that are like, this is a one off, this isn't, you know, what would you say to the skeptics?

Claud: Well I was a skeptic and here I am, never ever would've imagined myself doing this, let alone being on like a podcast, talking about it,

Sonja: talk about our feelings. Yeah. 

Claud: Never could have imagined myself having the kind of conversations that I have nowadays. So I guess maybe I'm a one-off, but I, I don't, you know, I think I had pretty typical attitudes that a lot of, you know, I think particularly men have in Medicine, maybe even outside of medicine. So I, you know, I think the other thing I would say is, you know, you, it takes two. So, you know, yes, you have to find a coach who you like and you know, who can help you. But it, I think you have to approach it with a bit of an open mind. And it doesn't have to be fully open. Mine was not fully open when I came into this. But I think you have to be willing to be a little bit humble when you start. Because, or at least willing to admit that things could be better. Maybe that's the best way of saying things, is that I think once you realize that nothing is inevitable things can be better. I think that's You know, I think that's probably the, the initial step. 

Sonja: And for me, I think I was like, what is this woman going to tell me that I don't already know? Like, I'm a physician. I know how to coach people. I know, like, the importance of daily habits. I know all this. And it's not necessarily entirely new information, but it's creating this space to reflect and process and, have somebody guide you, recover what you already have in you, right? Like, it's not like I'm a different person now. I've just learned with Arpita's help to find the goodness in me that was always there just, you know, shut down by culture and society and life. Yeah. 

Arpita: Hmm. So good. So, so good. I'm so again, just so thankful that you guys are here and that you gave yourselves the opportunity to do it. And to have that open mind to try, because I think a lot of us are in that same boat. When we hear about it, when we see other people who are talking about coaching and what it is, it's so easy to say, these people are crazy. They don't, you know, maybe they have low self confidence, which is always what I always thought, you know, they just don't have their act together. Like I don't need that. I can handle it. And it's amazing how much we don't know. Right? And once we can consider, just even consider the option of maybe something being a little bit different, a little bit better to try something new, it can blow the doors wide open with, with a completely different life. I think. 

Sonja: Yeah. I mean, we all the time say it like the two of you changed our life. Like. This is one of the best things that's happened to us. Yeah. And now it's this, how do we help others feel as good as we feel? Which was right, the main reason I was like, okay, yeah, I will do this podcast. Because I want everyone to feel this light.

Arpita: Yeah. And I think that's for me, I'm not going to speak for Michael Hirsch, but that's partially why it's joyful for me to do the sessions because you start to feel so gracious when you see you're changing other people's lives. I mean, we help. This is what we do as physicians. We want to help make people better. And we want to help them be the best they can be. And this is a different way of us being able to do that. And that's what's been so powerful for me and why I don't ever see myself stopping with doing this. So.

Michael: I mean, I just want to take a moment to say how much we appreciate both of you coming on, sharing your story, sharing things that are not easy for all of us to talk about, Arpita and I do this every week but it's not easy to talk about kind of where you were, where you've been, and where you're headed, and you guys, we just appreciate all of the things that you highlighted today because I think that this is such a common experience for physicians and physician couples. And it is as Arpita was just saying it is, I don't know any other way to say it other than just so heartwarming to see both of you together in your element. You know, Arpita and I coach both of you, but we don't coach you together. And so this is the first time that we've kind of all hung out together and it's 

Sonja: Right, we know a lot about each other indirectly. 

Arpita: Maybe we should come over and we'll open another bottle of wine. Yeah. 

Michael: Claud picks though. He knows where the good stuff is.

Arpita: Yes I can't say exactly what he said if and more, you know, the love for you guys. And Claud like she said, we just met you today in terms of in person, but the love is there, right? Because you're such an important person for the person I work with. And so that's what we do is we just have love for everybody. That they're, they're involved with who's important to them as well. And so I am, I'm a little bit surprised, but it's been like constantly dripping. So I'm sorry about that. But it's just a testament for how much, how, how proud I am of you guys for doing the work for yourselves. And so just, I'm thankful. 

But if this episode resonated with you guys, and if anybody is on the fence, I would say, just check us out. Have that open mind. Schedule a Discovery Session with Michael Hersh or myself, and we will talk to you about this, and we will get you through whatever might be holding you back any any limiting beliefs or obstacles that you think why this may not work for you we can work through that with you and help you see that because this is at least the fifth or sixth physician couple that I know couple that I know so it makes a difference this work. So you just have to trust the process. 

Michael: It's all about the possibility, What if things could be different? What if this is the thing that makes things different for you? There's only one way to find out. Well, thank you both again so much for being here. We appreciate you both so much. Happy Valentine's day. To you and to our audience. And we'll see everybody next time on the next episode of Doctors Living Deliberately. 

Arpita: Happy Valentine's Day. I love you guys 

Claud: To you too. 

Michael: Take care. Bye.